'We fight like cats and dogs in a courtroom.' But they're united by a love for the system
State Attorney Brian Haas, entering his third term unopposed, and Public Defender Howard “Rex” Dimmig, retiring early next year from the post he’s held since 2012, may function as professional adversaries, but their mutual dedication to the integrity of the criminal justice system marks them as institutional allies.
In that regard they reflect the 10th Judicial Circuit’s history, reputation and tradition of collaboration among competing entities.
Haas is entering his third term unopposed. Dimmig is retiring early next year from the post he's held since 2012.
The two officials sat together recently to reflect on issues they confront every day.
Q. What are among the greatest challenges your office faces?
Dimmig: One is the ability to recruit and retain employees. I am short basically nine lawyers over what I think I need to be adequately staffed, and what that means is that lawyers have caseloads so high that they cannot give the amount of time to each case that the client deserves and needs.
Haas: It used to be that we would go to a law school for recruiting and there would be 20 to 30 students that had signed up. Now, you're lucky to interview two or three. We simply don't have the supply of young lawyers like we used to. And because of that, we don't have the staff that would be most preferred. Some of my lawyers have between 600 and 800 cases, and after a while that just becomes too overwhelming.
Q. As everyone knows, most cases are resolved through plea bargains. Is that the best way to adjudicate guilt or innocence?
Dimmig: This may not answer your question, but I've got to say this. I believe that in 1998, the state of Florida made a horrible, horrible mistake when it abandoned sentencing guidelines and went to something called the Criminal Punishment Code. Now a lot of people still call it guidelines because there's a score sheet, but the code was created to reduce judges’ discretion and reduce the opportunity for appellate courts to review the sentences that were imposed. Sentencing needs to be individualized. We've moved away from that.
Haas: In answer to your question, plea bargaining is an absolute necessity in our system. It's a numbers thing. If you have, like we do, thousands and thousands of cases, there's only a certain amount of jury trials that you can have in a given year. Rex and I are very proud of the fact that we continue to be among the leaders in the state in numbers of jury trials. Oftentimes we're doing more jury trials – not just on a percentage basis, but in sheer numbers – compared to places like Miami or Fort Lauderdale, which have much bigger populations. But plea agreements are absolutely necessary because there's just not enough resources or enough time. If we had to try every case, we'd be still working on a backlog from 1982.
Q. Does capital punishment deter others from committing heinous murders? Or is it mostly society’s way of achieving eye-for-an-eye retribution?
Dimmig: In most instances, capital murders are committed as an act of passion. And frankly, I don't know how you deter someone from having passion. So no, I don't believe that the death penalty is an effective deterrent. Right now, Florida has slightly under 400 people on death row. We know that the vast majority of those people will never be executed. They will spend the rest of their lives in prison.
In light of the limited resources that prosecutors’ offices and defense offices have, in light of the fact that the death penalty does not appear to be a real deterrent in the vast majority of cases, and particularly in light of the fact that now Florida has life imprisonment without any possibility of parole, I think it is an unnecessary use of resources.
Haas: Right now in my three counties, I'm prosecuting approximately 80 first-degree murder cases. My job as state attorney is to follow the law and make decisions as prescribed by the law. I think where folks get into trouble in the job that I have is when they think they know better than everybody, that not only are they the enforcer of the law but they also think that they know what the law should be – refusing to enforce the death penalty like we've seen in some cases. It's just reckless. As long as the law is as it is, I'm going to follow it.
Q. The county jail is our circuit’s largest and most expensive mental health facility. Now that the governor and legislature have appeared to criminalize homelessness, is it likely to become the largest homeless shelter as well? And from a public policy standpoint, is this a good idea?
Haas: Mental health is a very serious issue that's not just impacting society as a whole but specifically our criminal justice system because a lot of folks with mental health issues are caught up in the criminal justice system – and it takes up a lot of our resources. So our challenge is to find the things that we can do to get these folks the help that they need in order to keep them from continuing to violate the law. Sheriff (Grady) Judd has been a really good leader in the area of trying to get help for the mentally ill. And Rex and I have been involved with these initiatives, but it’s a constant issue.
On a different note – and it may not be a popular position – there are a lot of people who are homeless because of their own choice. And frankly, I get sick and tired of seeing these people interfering with our businesses and harassing people. And so I'm looking for ways to do something about the people who are bringing our whole society down and who are just a nuisance.
Dimmig: The short answer to your question is no, I don't think the county jail is going to become the largest homeless shelter simply because I can't imagine a judge keeping a homeless person in jail very long. The legislature recently passed a law that says if a county or a city creates a zone for homeless people that has electricity, running water, bathroom facilities, shower facilities and healthcare available, then those people can live there and won't be a nuisance to other people. But that becomes a county or municipality responsibility and if the county or the municipality isn't willing to provide such a service, then law enforcement is to strictly enforce what they refer to as anti-camping or sleeping ordinances.
The first was a good idea, the second takes it too far. Somewhere there needs to be funding so that there can be job training for those who are homeless who want to be able to work but don't have the skills. A lot of it is economics, particularly here in Polk County where the cost of housing has just skyrocketed. So we need to make available resources other than county jails to house homeless people.
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Q. How important is it for citizens to have confidence in the rule of law, the legitimacy of your offices, the independence of the judiciary and the value of the jury system? And do you think that confidence is being undermined by our relentless, dysfunctional politics?
Dimmig: For the entirety of my career, public defenders’ offices have been the source of much criticism. We've been called “public pretenders.” We've been called “engineers on the railroad to state prison.” Now a large part of the public is looking at prosecutors’ offices that way, they're looking at law enforcement agencies that way, they're looking at the courts that way, and without confidence in the integrity of the court system I don't think you have a system anymore, you've got chaos.
There’s got to be a certain amount of faith. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best the world has ever known. Calling into question the veracity of verdicts, criticizing judges, criticizing citizens who've given of their time and energy to sit on a jury, undermines what to me is one of the fundamental institutions that makes the United States a unique country.
Haas: It's fair to say there’re a lot of questions about things that are going on in the court system. It's a deep concern of mine that folks do not have confidence. But I can't get caught up in all that. All I can do is do the best job I can in Polk, Highlands and Hardee counties so that when our local folks look to this court system, they're not going to say it's perfect but it’s as perfect a system as we can have because it's filled with people who are dedicated to the rule of law and to making sure that our laws are fairly applied and enforced and that we're not using the court system for political prosecutions or retribution or whatever. Every day our goal is to do the right thing in every case and to make sure that people have confidence in the 10th Judicial Circuit of Florida.
Q. At a time when there is widespread concern about the legitimacy of our institutions, are you worried about whether our country’s bonds that rely on trust are fraying?
Haas: That's always a concern. If you look back in our history, there have always been periods where a particular institution or a part of our government is under severe question. That’s our nature as Americans, that's what we do – we ask questions and when we don't like the answers, there's the right to protest and there's the right to speak out and be heard. And if you're not happy with the way things are going, then those rights extend to the ballot box, to change leadership.
We may disagree about different political issues, but I think we can agree that we all want good schools, a safe community, business opportunities and a place where your family and mine can enjoy this beautiful place that we live. Those are common grounds that we could build on – and we need to focus more on the things that bring us together than the things that divide us.
Dimmig: I am reluctant to say it because it saddens me so, but I do think there has been an intentional move to undermine people's confidence in many of the institutions of our country. And while I believe that we should always question decisions that have been made, what we shouldn't be questioning is the motivation behind those decisions. We now have some leaders who want to undermine people's confidence that their opponents have the best interest of the country at heart, and that has long-term ramifications. If we’re always questioning the motivation behind those decisions, then I think our institutions ultimately are going to fail.
Q. On that cheery note, is there anything you would like to add that we haven’t discussed?
Haas: My concluding thought would be a tribute to Rex as he's getting ready to retire. A properly run and robust public defender’s office is critical to the overall health of our criminal justice system. Rex's office and his folks are great public servants. I'm personally appreciative of Rex for his career, but also for his work as elected public defender and wish him well in retirement.
Dimmig: Thank you, Brian. One of the unique things about the 10th Judicial Circuit is that while those of us who are involved in the court system do not always see eye to eye – we fight like cats and dogs in a courtroom – we nonetheless always have taken the position that the other person's motives are good. I frequently disagree with decisions some of Brian's prosecutors have made, but I've never questioned their motives and that has allowed us to have a level of communication in this circuit that I don't see in most of the rest of the state. I disagree with Grady Judd on a great many issues, but I can pick up my cell phone and call him anytime and he can do the same. And this has been the working policy of officials in this county ever since I first got here in 1977.